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Post by Sz on Dec 11, 2006 0:08:19 GMT -5
I think I understand what you mean by "snobs", Ku, but even so:
I don't think any level of snobbery is involved in Sonic 2K6's backlash. It is not too much to ask for a game that isn't overrun with major glitches.
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Post by Kulock on Dec 11, 2006 0:51:55 GMT -5
Make no mistake, my snobs comment did NOT mean, "Because Sonic 2k6 is awesome!!!!!!1!!" As I've said, it has a few interesting and impressive moments, but I would be a major hypocrite given my own personal reactions to say it was the best thing EVAR, not to mention lying through my teeth.
That said, I'll point out that before most of even the hardcore fandom knew about the details of the game, many general forumgoers around, let's face it, GAF and such, supposedly already had the game completely figured out and knew it was going to be trash. Not because they played it, not because they know plot details or level structure or even watched a trailer through. No, they saw a picture of Blaze, or Amy, "LOL SHIT" and that was it for the game for them. Despite the CONSTANT media of Sonic initially, things were presumed about the game the second anything other than Sonic was shown. And yeah, I get that in many respects they were right, but they didn't have this awesome foresight or insider knowledge. Some were just on the PA Parrot Train (and this was PA talking about a different, FIVE YEAR OLD game), some couldn't accept the very possibility that anyone other than Sonic was going to be in the game, but Sonic's part might still be good, et cetera.
It's hard to look at it balanced from our current perspective, but I just mean that as one example anyway. The hardcores are finicky, nitpicky, and quick to jump ship, and many of them don't put their money where their mouth is anyway. (And I'm NOT saying I'm excluded.) So when developers do potentially go out of their way to appease those tastes, more often than not I bet it seriously bites them on the ass. They end up not doing something "right," so the hardcores turn their noses up and leave, and they're left with a product that they're going to have a hell of a time selling to the mainstream.
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Post by BlazeHedgehod on Dec 11, 2006 1:06:54 GMT -5
Shadow did a bit better than decent in sales. It did well enough that it's a greatest hits title for both the PS2 and Gamecube. It sold over a million combined between the three systems.
As for me declaring this the end of Sonic - not yet. Every time I mention it, you'll note I say I'm waiting on the verdict for Sonic & The Secret Rings.
But, you know, I think it was some former EA guy or something a little bit ago... he said all it takes is two bad entries in a series and 70% of your userbase will be soured toward that franchise for many years to come, and it's incredibly difficult to win them back.
Regardless of what Heroes, Shadow, or Sonic 2k6 sold, opinion on them is the pits. People who like those games are in the minority.
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Post by Jolly Joes on Dec 11, 2006 1:11:17 GMT -5
After it has been discounted by $40 and when the 360 is cheaper and have more colorful games that mainly appeals to the 14 and under crowd and this is assuming that the 360 is a market leader...maybe. =P Though this game is pretty much already 'marked' as a bad game and bad Sonic games rarely have legs after the first sales of the holiday season. Sad truth: Most of game sales come from people who could give a rat's ass about reviews, or even warnings. And as far as the Sonic games are concerned, most of their sales came from kids who owned GCN and the GBA. Also, didn't NBA2K7 outsold that crappy and buggy NBA Live 2007? So people seemed to have gained some since of quality. And it is unfortunately possible that Sonic console sales will continue to go down because of ST damaging the brand name. I mean look what happened to Tomb Raider before it bounced back? But again, I don't see ST attempting to create a solo Shadow game because they probably know that gold won't strike twice especially when releasing them on consoles that lacks a Sonic fanbase or a potential larger Sonic fanbase. There were discussions about it in the grapevine at insert credit, amoung other places that Sega and Dimps were fighting over the rights of the Rumblefish games. Guess the falling out explains why Sega's only announced DS game this E3 was a crappy licensed game--Charlotte's Web. You think most 18-24 males, the demo who is into Gears and GRAW and who are the main core group that is buying the Xbox 360 are going to want to play Sonic 2K6? This system is the successor of a console where Sonic moved the least amount of units in all world markets. So, when I meant that Sonic 2k6 isn't a mainstream title here, I meant that it is a hard sell to this demograph. And I wouldn't be surprised if word spread out on the latest Gears or whatever session on Xbox Live that word spread out that Sonic 2K6 is terrible. Is the Core system still available in stores? All I see are the Premium Bundles. Even at $300, I could see more parents selling out the monies for a PS2, GBASP, or a DSLite for their kids(assuming they can't get the hottest thing, the Wii) than a 360. I mean have you seen the Nov. sales charts for those systems? That's just crazy, especially with the DSLite. MS sort of boned up in advertising this system for kids so far--seeing that Viva bombed. Out of all the next-gen systems, I have a feeling that Wii will probably be the "Kid's Choice" of consoles due to three words: Mario and Pokemon. I could see Sonic Wii being more successful on that console. And how many units does it take for a game to hit at Platinum Hits for the X360. Not even Shadow for the Xbox is a Platinum Hit and that game had a $20 price drop in many retailers after the holiday season was over. I expect the same will happen with Sonic 2K6 which isn't what I would call good news for Sega. Though maybe this will prompt Sega to bring Love and Berry in the West hopes that it will become the next Nintendogs and to recopperate costs. Meh. =P EDIT: Maybe it is because that they are actually sick and tired of being forced to play as anyone but Sonic or in addition to Sonic. I mean one of the biggest reasons why their seem to be so much excitment over Sonic Wii is because I bet at the most they would want to play as Sonic, Tails, and Knux(and only those 3) because they represent the Golden-Age of Sonic and they have fond memories of those characters. Not many people who haven't played a Sonic game in ages are going to be looking forward to play as "that bat with breasts" or that "psychic Sonic" or the other "eleventy billion characters" in the franchise. I mean when you have professional reviewers who are thinking the same way, then it could be a small indication that you might not be exactly heading with the right direction with the franchise.
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Post by Sz on Dec 11, 2006 1:13:09 GMT -5
I understand your point, Ku, but I just think Sonic 2K6 is the wrong example to point to.
Because, after all, they were right. It is a bad game.
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Post by Kulock on Dec 11, 2006 1:21:34 GMT -5
But as I said, they didn't have some magical foresight, Sz. They were jaded by even the slightest of elements appearing that didn't fit their ideals. Other games have had the same things happen to them. It's really becoming inane.
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Post by Jolly Joes on Dec 11, 2006 1:37:30 GMT -5
Hey, I edited my previous post. Lookie up there.
And they were jaded because the game reminded them of Shadow the Hedgehog. I mean the first screenshots of the game were of Crisis City and it featured Shadow in a freaking hummer.
Not to mention they believed that the game would return "Sonic to his roots" in which Sega continuously said. So yeah, I think some of a complaining was understandable there.
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Post by Jolly Joes on Dec 11, 2006 1:44:48 GMT -5
When did people not have faith in Sonic 2k6? At E3 2006 when the Crisis City/Kingdom Valley screencaps and movies shown up, Silver and Elise was revealed, and Shadow came back with a venegance in a friggin' hummer. Oh and when we first heard that the demo there sucked balls. Again, that was before E3. Many people believed that it was a return to Sonic roots like Sega said. hahahahaha
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Post by 突貫 (Tokkan) on Dec 11, 2006 1:47:12 GMT -5
When did people not have faith in Sonic 2k6? Everyone had been all "THIS IS GOING TO MAKE SONIC GOOD AGAIN " like every other game before it was going to. Then as soon as we find out the game sucks, we say "oh we never thought it was good" when I hear nothing but hope out of everyone whenever a new ship sails along for us to ridiculously cling to as it sinks. Even I had a tiny bit of hope for 2k6 despite knowing better. I mean, even if it did turn out bad, I was expecting Shadow the Hedgehog bad, not...this. ... What the hell are you talking?! Don't generalise like that, the entire fandom was split over what to think of Sonic2k6 before it was released. There were just as many, if not more, people who were disgusted to see another game like SA/SA2/Shadow as there were people who were excited for it. Honestly, before you go criticising a fandom, don't just pay attention to one particular group and generalise the fandom around it. It isn't good practice and shows a great deal of ignorance.
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Post by Sz on Dec 11, 2006 2:30:12 GMT -5
But as I said, they didn't have some magical foresight, Sz. They were jaded by even the slightest of elements appearing that didn't fit their ideals. Other games have had the same things happen to them. It's really becoming inane. Perhaps. But for all we know they could have recognized some similarity, or indeed had some magical foresight about the game. That's the problem when the initial suspicions are revealed to be true -- you can point out how jaded people are until you're red faced, but ultimately it doesn't say anything: They were right. More generally, there is a point where cynicism becomes prudence. If you're trying to prove the former is bad/overplentiful, best to use a scenario as far from the latter as possible. That's all I'm saying. ;P
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Post by Kulock on Dec 11, 2006 3:53:01 GMT -5
*shrug* Let me put it this way: let's say the Weekly World News was right, the world's ending next week. Are we going to celebrate their journalistic ingenuity, their keen foresight? Not bloody likely. Throw enough crap at the walls, and some of it sticks.
I'm not sure I'm being clear on what I mean, so I'll just step back for now on the matter. I just personally don't want to sit in a constant negative attitude toward everything that could come my way for a particular franchise just because there's been some letdowns. Although there were some stupid choices (but interestingly, the comments by the director about relating things to Sonic X puts quite a bit into perspective, but this wasn't the time or game to do it with), I primarily blame an artificial deadline for this one being terrible, and that's something the actual developers don't have much control over. Like I said before, there's these bits of "Hey, this is/could be pretty cool," even other professional reviews said that, but it just needs way more polishing and work. And it didn't get it.
Which is why it also bothers me that Sega's still keen on pushing out the PS3 version on December 21st in Japan. It needs much more time than that.
But in the end, I'm not going to cross my arms and say, "That's it, it's all shit from now on." Each game is a new development, in some cases with a completely different dev group. I refuse to damn them all from here to eternity just because I've gotten burned a few times, I just like the series too much, and I stick around for the bits that ARE awesome. We see the media, we take educated guesses, more media trickles in, we adjust those guesses from there, and so on. My guesses for this game, particularly the plot, were way off because of some of the hints we heard, and a little knowledge is dangerous. But in the end, I still thought the plot was an excellent surprise. I'm glad I stuck through it for that. I didn't just read it on a blog or see a crappy YouTube video a few weeks later, I made my way there and saw it all first-hand, fresh and surprising in many regards.
It's easy to call everything crap when you keep it arms-length away from you. I'd really hate to adopt that attitude, because there are the little gems you miss out on. And what's the point of being a fan if those "aren't important"?
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Post by BlazeHedgehod on Dec 11, 2006 5:04:40 GMT -5
Well, they do and they don't. They can obviously meet with their supervisor and say, "Hey, I don't think the game is ready yet. We need more time." and have a disussion from there.
That's kind of the job of the game's producers and directors, you know? Evaluate the quality of the game and decide if it's ready for public consumption. And once they think it's ready, it goes through Quality & Assurance testing to double check, and if it passes that, it gets released.
Then again, there's been questions for years on whether or not Sega actually has a QA department, and whenever we hear from somebody who was part of that QA department, it's never good. ("We didn't know what changes were made from the previous build to a new build. We just had to guess." etc.)
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Post by Jolly Joes on Dec 11, 2006 7:22:49 GMT -5
The fact that the plot in a Sonic platformer is the highlight as opposed to gameplay in this game is quite saddening.
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Post by Andrusi on Dec 11, 2006 12:32:11 GMT -5
Still I have a feeling that at least Secret Rings would get a more positive reception than Sonic 2006. Hello? Sonic fans?
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Post by Evan on Dec 11, 2006 15:30:29 GMT -5
When did people not have faith in Sonic 2k6? Everyone had been all "THIS IS GOING TO MAKE SONIC GOOD AGAIN " like every other game before it was going to. Then as soon as we find out the game sucks, we say "oh we never thought it was good" when I hear nothing but hope out of everyone whenever a new ship sails along for us to ridiculously cling to as it sinks. Even I had a tiny bit of hope for 2k6 despite knowing better. I mean, even if it did turn out bad, I was expecting Shadow the Hedgehog bad, not...this. ... What the hell are you talking?! Don't generalise like that, the entire fandom was split over what to think of Sonic2k6 before it was released. There were just as many, if not more, people who were disgusted to see another game like SA/SA2/Shadow as there were people who were excited for it. Honestly, before you go criticising a fandom, don't just pay attention to one particular group and generalise the fandom around it. It isn't good practice and shows a great deal of ignorance. Fair enough. I honestly saw more positive than negative, but you have a point.
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Post by Jolly Joes on Dec 11, 2006 17:28:58 GMT -5
Still I have a feeling that at least Secret Rings would get a more positive reception than Sonic 2006. Hello? Sonic fans?I wasn't limiting the positive reception to only Sonic fans.
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Post by Andrusi on Dec 11, 2006 20:05:27 GMT -5
I wasn't limiting the positive reception to only Sonic fans. It's still video game fans, and therefore a fandom.
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Post by Evan on Dec 11, 2006 20:28:07 GMT -5
Yeah, if I had to choose I'd pick Secret Rings--it looks utterly crap but I don't yet feel it'll be as utterly damaging to Sonic as 2k6 was. Shadow-scale, probably
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Post by Jolly Joes on Dec 11, 2006 23:59:14 GMT -5
I wasn't limiting the positive reception to only Sonic fans. It's still video game fans, and therefore a fandom. But not all video game fans are Sonic fans or care about the Sonic community.
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Post by Andrusi on Dec 12, 2006 0:01:44 GMT -5
It's still video game fans, and therefore a fandom. But not all video game fans are Sonic fans or care about the Sonic community. But you weren't limiting the positive reception to only Sonic fans.
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